NCC NBAFRick: North Carolina is on the shortlist to become the new home of the National Bio and Agro Defense facility which will be, which will house, some the nastiest viruses and deadliest diseases known to man. On this edition of Focus Donna and I will ask if this laboratory winds up in Butner, North Carolina, will it be a biotech bonanza or a biohazard disaster just waiting to happen.
Donna: Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us here at Focus. We are glad to have you.
Well, Rick, if Butner, North Carolina just 30 minutes north of the Triangle is ultimately selected as the site of the new federal lab it will become home to Ebola, smallpox, anthrax, swine fever and potentially lots more. Now a consortium of government, business and university officials support this facility as do Democratic congressmen, Brad Miller and David Price who represent the Triangle. Later in the show we will talk to the North Carolina State Professor who wrote the state’s proposal and get his take on why the group says the lab will not only be safe, it will also be a boost to the economy and the academic research field.
But others do have concerns about this lab, big ones. And they were detailed recently in a cover story in The Independent newspaper. Joining us now is the reporter who researched and wrote that story, Lisa Sorg, welcome to Focus.
Sorg: Thanks.
Rick: Hi, Lisa. Now exactly just what does this lab supposed to do?
Sorg: Well, it is a lab that, it is supposed to study some of the world’s deadliest diseases. It is also supposed to help us prepare for any kind of terror attack or agricultural threat -- whether that would be unintentional or intentional -- and by studying these diseases, they hope to find vaccines or some kind of other treatment for them to kind of thwart that threat.
Donna: Lisa, North Carolina is a finalist, correct?
Sorg: That’s correct.
Donna: There are about five facilities or five states I believe that are in the running for this?
Sorg: Yes.
Donna: And it is considered, I would think, quite a coup to grab a facility like this.
Sorg: Yes, I think there were originally, well, the last cut I think was around 29 sites and they winnowed it down farther and farther and now it’s down to the final five and all those sites are I would consider quite competitive in their own way.
Rick: Well, Lisa, what is the downside of having this great new lab?
Sorg: Well, for me, I want to make sure that I say first that I am not necessarily opposed to this sort of research going on. My concern is that the Department of Homeland Security is the lead agency of this lab and their track record is poor. They were over FEMA when Hurricane Katrina hit and we know how FEMA’s response was. They are currently understaffed. I think the Washington Post reported in early July that there are 138 vacancies at that agency out of 575 positions. So it makes me wonder if they have the staff to even manage this sort of thing. And then its predecessor Plum Island Animal Research Disease Center was run by the USDA and it has been just plagued and plagued with terrible—
Rick: No pun intended there, huh?
[LAUGHTER]
Sorg: No pun intended. With safety and security breaches that have been well documented and there is no question that they happened.
Donna: Well, Lisa, this facility would be considered a bio-safety level four as you reported in your story and clearly the things that would be there, the viruses and such, are the worst of the worst on what could potentially afflict us if something gets out. But isn’t it also true that there are a number of level three facilities that are already around North Carolina and operating without problems?
Sorg: Yes, there are more than a dozen, I believe it is in the Triangle area, and those lower level facilities in the Triangle have not reported any major contaminations or workplace exposures. That’s not to say that these kinds of labs in other places haven’t had issues. I think I reported in the story that just recently Texas A&M which is in College Station, Texas (and it was actually one of the early finalists for the site) had just been shut down by the federal government because it had exposed some workers to a disease and then not told anyone.
Rick: Well, with regard to public notification of breaches and so forth, do you think that the folks in North Carolina and in the Triangle area really have enough knowledge about this lab? I mean, if the lab comes here do you think people will have any idea of just what exactly is going to be behind the doors?
Sorg: Well, that’s an excellent question because I don’t know how much we will be allowed to know as many things now are secret because of ostensibly national security issues. So we may not be able to know exactly what’s going on in there. There would, you know, possibly be some open records request you could file, but it is really unknown as to what would be disclosed.
Donna: We’re talking about what could potentially be an incredible new federal lab located in Butner, North Carolina if North Carolina is indeed chosen as the final site for this facility. Things like Ebola, anthrax, could be stored in that facility and our question on the table here at Focus as we talk to a reporter who has done a lot of research on this, Lisa Sorg, the question is this: does this scare you based on what you have heard so far? Here are the numbers to reach us at Focus—800-662-7979 or direct at 919-860-9783.
Lisa, give us a sense of some of the potential concerns of a facility like this. What could happen?
Sorg: Well, at its predecessor, Plum Island, for example, there were security breaches where people could get onto the island. There were, as recent as 2003, foreign scientists who had not undergone complete background checks wandering around bio-containment areas. If those had been—if anything had been stolen from that lab -- it could have been released.
Donna: That sounds really incredible, Lisa. No background checks or not a recent one?
Sorg: Well, they were incomplete and this is according to a Government Accountability Office report that came out in September of 2003. And so that is very recent. You know, it is not something from the ‘60s or ‘70s and it was under the department of Homeland Security’s watch. So to me the fact that these kinds of unescorted folks, whether they are maintenance workers or foreign scientists or just people who shouldn’t be in there, presents a threat and the GAO report said as such.
Rick: Lisa, have—in your reporting, were you able to find out that let’s just say if a hazard happened, a very significant hazard, is the town of Butner, is the Triangle, is the state of North Carolina, prepared to handle something in case something goes wrong at this new proposed plant or laboratory?
Sorg: Well, I think the consortium and these government folks would tell you yes. I think in the proposal, the expected response time was around 35 to 50 minutes, although, Barrett Slenning, who I think you will have on later, will be quick to point out that’s the current, under current circumstances, that could be shorter if they assembled another rapid response team, and if the lab, if Butner were chosen, I think it remains to be seen. I don’t know that we have had anything of a BSL 4, we haven’t had anything like that before, so it’s hard to say how prepared we will be. Obviously I think it is in the consortium’s best interest; they don’t want anything to happen, so they’ll do the best they can, it’s just a matter of whether the Dept. of Homeland Security does their job too.
Rick: Is North Carolina at more risk than other states simply because we have such a huge agricultural community, particularly in livestock like chickens and hogs and so forth?
Sorg: Well, I believe in the story I quoted a man named Michael Carroll, who wrote a book called Lab 257, which was about the Plum Island animal research lab, and his thought is that putting in something like, that would study hog diseases in a hog central state, is actually a really bad thing. Now, a lot of those hogs are located east of 95, but this is still an agricultural state, and you wouldn’t want anything to get out there that could possibly compromise that particular industry.
Donna: Certainly. And Lisa, Congressmen Brad Miller and David Price, both of those gentlemen have basically said that this is a good idea as long as there are safety precautions put in place. Is there any organized opposition to this at this point?
Sorg: Not that I know of, although shortly after this story was published, I did get a call from a couple folks in Granville County who are very concerned—
Rick: I bet. [LAUGHS]
Donna: Yeah.
Sorg: And this is before my time, because I haven’t lived in North Carolina that long, just about a year, but several years ago, apparently, there was an attempt to cite a hazardous waste dump or some kind of site in Granville County, and this particular person felt like that once again Granville was being targeted, or something that maybe not a lot of people would want.
Donna: Interesting. Well, Lisa, when will we know if North Carolina is indeed the site for this federal lab?
Sorg: Well, over the next year or so the federal government is required under law to conduct an environmental impact statement, it’s called an EIS, and during that time there will be public hearings and there will be opportunity for public comment, and then after that the Homeland Security is supposed to announce the winner, so to speak.
[LAUGHTER]
Sorg: And construction could begin the following year.
Donna: I guess it depends on how you feel about it, if you’re the winner.
Rick: You have Ebola! Congratulations!
[LAUGHTER]
Donna: That’s right. Well, Lisa, it’s a fascinating story and I would encourage everyone to read it, and you can go to The Independent’s website at indyweek.com. Look for Lisa Sorg’s story on this potential federal lab in Bunter. We’re going to continue talking about this, but Lisa, we appreciate your time this afternoon.
Sorg: Thanks a lot.
Donna: Thank you so much.
Rick: Now stay with us. Next we’re going to talk to a North Carolina State University scientist who is going around the state telling people that this proposed laboratory is a good deal for North Carolina. You’re listening to Focus, a production of stategovernmentradio.com.
Rick: Today on Focus we are looking at the potential benefits and hazards of a proposed federal laboratory, the National Bio and Agro Defense Facility in Butner, North Carolina.
Donna: Glad you’re with us, everyone. We appreciate you joining us here at Focus, and remember we always want to hear your questions and comments, so feel free to weigh in. Well, Rick, among the people that were interviewed for Lisa Sorg’s story in The Independent was Prof. Barrett Slenning. Now, he is with NC State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, the Animal Biosecurity Risk Management Group. He also wrote the proposal for the North Carolina Consortium, the group that supports the lab being sited in Butner, just north of the Triangle. Prof. Slenning joints us now here on Focus. Professor, welcome to the show.
Slenning: Well, thank you for having me on. I just wanted to correct one thing: I was just a lead writer; there were a lot of people involved in putting this together.
Donna: Okay.
Rick: Well, that’s like saying there were a lot of people putting together the Declaration of Independence, but it was Thomas Jefferson who got the job done there, Professor.
[LAUGHTER]
Slenning: But I would never put myself in that circle.
Rick: Well, there’s probably no person as knowledgeable as yourself as to what this laboratory will do, so tell us the importance of this laboratory and what it would mean for North Carolina if Bunter ends up being the home of this new laboratory.
Slenning: I’d be happy to do that, Rick. There are a couple points. This lab, as Lisa was talking about it, is supposed to become the successor to a now 50-year-old animal disease lab, which is the primary animal disease lab in the US, at Plum Island. But it is also supposed to pick up extra missions. One of those is to become the federal point where the research is done on what are called “zoonotic” diseases. Those are diseases that are shared between humans and other animals. Currently USDA works on some, CDC works on others in Atlanta, and sometimes things may fall between the cracks. This would become the federal home for it. The last mission for it has been to also really look at evaluating and developing diagnostic tests, vaccines and similar kinds of things for fighting or preventing these kinds of diseases. So that’s what its mission will be.
As far as what it will bring to this state are a number of things. One is, as your previous conversation talked about, it would be seen as a real feather in the cap for this state, it will really help us recruit high end people at the universities, at our private industries, as well as at government, to be able to work with this facility. It’s going to have a big economic development as well, several hundred jobs from very high-end researchers through to maintenance and security as well as probably a very likely spin-off effect of being a magnet to attract other industries in.
Donna: Well, Professor, when laypeople, those of us who are not scientists like yourself, hear the words like “Ebola”, “anthrax,” I mean, that kind of raises eyebrows. Can you just tell us, do you believe that this facility has the potential of being dangerous, or are we worried about nothing?
Slenning: Well, let me first back up, a little, about the premise. Smallpox, Ebola, anthrax, Marburg, none of those are going to be worked at, at this facility. That has already been made very clear. They’re being worked at safely now in Atlanta, Georgia with the CDC, and it doesn’t make any sense to recreate the wheel up here.
Donna: Let’s be clear on that. You’re saying no, and I know in Lisa Sorg’s story in The Independent she quotes Democratic congressman Brad Miller as saying Smallpox will be in Butner, Ebola will be in Butner. Is he mistaken, then?
Slenning: Yes.
Donna: Okay. Well, we appreciate you clearing that up for us.
Rick: Well, what will be in there?
Slenning: What will be in there are a series of diseases, or foreign animal diseases, Foot and Mouth is the one most people would have heard of. There will be a couple of what are called “Swine Fever” diseases, and then there will be, on this zoonotic side (the diseases that we share with other animals), will be some viruses, some similar to West Nile, other kinds of infectious viruses that way, but they won’t be these big ones that everybody talks about smallpox, anthrax, Ebola.
Rick: Well, Professor, if North Carolina actually is named the state, will there be some sort of pubic notification so that people will know exactly what this laboratory will be doing, what types of diseases will be worked on, and exactly the security that will be in place?
Slenning: Yes, they will, and actually some of this information is new, it is, they were not, things that I knew when I last talked with Lisa, because we finished a two-day meeting Thursday and Friday up in Washington DC.
Donna: Oh! Okay.
Slenning: One of the important things for people to realize is, as it is true with Plum Island, none of the research that’s going to be done at the National Bio and Agro Defense Facility will be classified. Everybody is going to be encouraged to be publishing -- they want them to do lots of collaboration with outside people -- so none of that is going to be classified. Certainly the security will. They’re not going to publish “...these are where all of our doors are, and this is how we protect ourselves...”
Donna: Right, “... and if you’d like to come in and maybe take something and do something bad with it, here’s how...”
[LAUGHTER]
Slenning: Yeah, right: “Just come up this road, turn left.” No, none of that kind of thing is going to happen, but the research itself is going to be unclassified. So: One, it will be published; people will know what’s going on; Two, the process that we go through now -- as Lisa was talking about the environmental impact statement for the next year or so -- is going to have public meetings. We’re not sure exactly when right now, but sometime in the middle of September we are going to have a big meeting in Granville County with public -- that is, the sole purpose is to get public commentary and public ideas on it. When the draft report is written sometime next spring, there will be another big meeting where public commentary is going to be requested. And then, when they do the final, which will be next summer or fall, there will be another period in there for public commentary. There will be a number of places for people to have their input to it.
Rick: I guess it was about a year or two ago, there was an outbreak of bird flu that started out in chickens I believe in the Orient, and then of course it was like, “Oh my goodness, is this going to come to the United States?” Is this lab, will this lab be the place where you guys would be working on trying to thwart an outbreak similar to what we remember with the bird flu about a year or so ago?
Slenning: The current list of diseases for this to study does not include avian influenza, so no, right now, it wouldn’t be in there. I would expect, however, that when you get a large group of people, of very high end people together, such as what will be at the NBAF, is that they will be tapped for their knowledge, they will be tapped to be able to help. But it sounds like these things will be done at other places.
Donna: Well, Professor, give us a sense, then, of exactly what diseases can be shared between humans and animals in North Carolina, and essentially what are the areas that you fear might somehow get into our agriculture and poultry and swine industry?
Slenning: Are you asking me in general, or particularly as related to the NBAF?
Donna: Well, related to the federal facility, would anything in that category be studied to try to prevent something like that?
Slenning: Well, certainly, any time you have any kind of a disease under study then the only reason we would do it is because it causes some harm to the outside, so any disease that comes in, currently what’s being looked at in our state public health labs in Raleigh, or at the state agriculture labs, would fit in that same category.
Rick: I guess the bottom line is with regarding the safety, would you buy a house in the first neighborhood right next to this lab?
Slenning: I would have no problem doing so.
Donna: Do you think that there’s going to be any organized opposition, Professor, as people find out more or do you think once they find out more they’ll feel better about it?
Slenning: So far our experience has been that the more people find out about this the better they are. Lisa had talked about early on in the early 90s there were issues with a high end waste incinerator in Granville county, I knew most of the people -- I’ve been on the farm up there since 1989 -- and they were some of the first people we talked to about this, the people who had protested and led the protest against the incinerator. So we’ve been doing a lot of this outreach, and so far most of the people who hear about it feel much better about it. There will be some national level opposition groups that are already up there, but I don’t know, so far we have not seen such in North Carolina.
Rick: Professor, in case something would happen at this lab, we have a lot of private concerns at the Research Triangle Park, you’ve been at this for awhile, how well prepared is North Carolina and the federal government able to handle an outbreak in case something went wrong at this laboratory, or say a laboratory at Research Triangle Park, or maybe at NC State University?
Slenning: North Carolina is really leading the country, one of the leaders in the country, in preparedness and response. The state, because of our history with hurricanes and ice storms has had to develop itself and understand how these kinds of processes work, how to put them together. So with the 50-year now history of RTP with federal agencies from EPA through the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, with all of our research universities, and the private sector as you mentioned, each of them has emergency response plans that are tied in with regional response plans. This would just be another one to add in.
Donna: Is there any of your material, your documents about this project that are available to the public at this point? We have directed people to Lisa’s story in The Independent newspaper and certainly we would want them to have all aspects, all sides of this; where can they find out more from your perspective.
Slenning: Yes, we have a website, www.NCC-NBAF.org.
Donna: All right.
Slenning: And we have almost all of the documents that we have put up in there and we have lots of discussions as well.
Donna: All right, well, that will be great information for people who are interested in this. Prof. Slenning, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate your time today.
Slenning: Thank you for having me and I also want to say I appreciate Lisa and all of the effort and work she put into her story, too.
Donna: Terrific. Thank you. Barrett Slenning is with NC State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine.
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